Robert–Reminds me of what wise old king Solomon once said, “there’s a time for everything under the sun” etc. – from Ecclesiastes 3. He goes on to include things like laughter and sorrow, war and peace…
rawgod–I don’t think there is ever a time for war. Having “god,” or Solomon, suggest war is okay is anti-life.
Robert–So war against the Nazis is wrong?
rawgod–The nazis starting a war was wrong. If Hitler had not started the war, if he had not been “given the power” to start that war, there would have been no war.
Robert–So you deny “god”‘s existence when convenient, and blame Him for “giving the power” when convenient. Does God exist in your mind or not?
rawgod–I never said the power came from god. The power, in this case, came from the German people. You want to belive in your god, Robert, that is your right. I do not believe in your god, and that is my right.
rawgod–To restart. Robert, you said, “So you deny “god’s” existence when convenient, and blame Him for “giving the power” when convenient. Does God exist in your mind or not?”
First, I do not deny your god’s existence when convenient, I deny his existence, outrightly, completely, entirely, for eternity. THERE IS NO GOD, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME.
But thank you for attemting to put words in my mouth that I would never speak. No god or other all-knowing, aĺl-powerful superbeing exists in my life, not just in my mind. Where did you read that the power Hitler took to do what he did came from your god? That power, as I said, came from those German citizens who were either blind to his intentions, agreed with his intentions, or did not stand up to prevent his intentions from ever happening.
In fact, I find it pretty astounding that you could think your god would grant anyone the power to do not only what Hitler did, or any other mass murderer has done since the beginning of life on earth, whether 6000 years ago, or 6 billion years ago. No one should ever have such power! Yet how many times has it happened in just the last 150 years, not the 4.5 billion years life as we know it has existed. I know some names of mass-murderers in the last 150 years, but actually lets go back to when Columbo arrived in the western hemisphere. Pizarro in South America; the leaders of what is now America who tried to commit genocide on my ancestors whom they called inhuman savages, giving them the right to slaughter them in the name of christianity; Canada, same thing; Hitler; Stalin; Pol Pot. They murdered on larger scales, but America has had how many postal shooting, and school shootings, and crowd shootings, terrorist murder plots, etc? Even Trump, who ordered the murders of Kashoggi, and Soleimani. These (above) are all people who were given the power, or took the power upon themselves, to destroy other living beings. I will only mention the murderers of the Dodos, or the buffalo, in passing, except to say those people who slaughtered the bison for their skins, leaving the meat to rot on the expanses of the prairies, billions upon billions of completely unnecessary and useless murders, all of them by mass muderers. (The ones who slaughtered the Dodos did it for the sheer fun of it. Dodo meat was inedible. What was the purpose of that?) You want to put all these murders on the non-existent shoulders of your all-powerful all-loving god? You should be ashamed of yourself, but if that is how you choose to live, sobeit. It’s your right.
I choose to blame the murdering people themselves who did these deeds, and lay some of the blame at the feet of the nations, the cutures, and the societies who bred them, including the religions who blessed their works. Funny how both sides of many conflicts claim their god’s approval in what they did, when they both worshipped the same god. And you wonder that I chose to stop believing in such deities, and theities? Who is the insane one here?
How, Robert, did you ever come to the conclusion the power I spoke of was coming from your god. Those were not my words, but it WAS your assumption.
I know you want me to appear to your friends and fellow-belivers as the flip-flopper, but I am cherry-picking nothing, while believers in the “One True God” cherry-pick the bible for those parts which they choose to accept, and ignore the parts they don’t like or believe. (Why else are there so many denominatons of so-called christian religions?) You are doing exactly that in this conversation. You opened the discussion to “beliefs of convenience,” sir, not me. Don’t get all upset over your opponent for using against you the weapons you brought to use against him.
Meanwhile, you used them under false pretences, not arguing against what I said, but against WHAT YOU CHOSE TO BELIEVE I SAID. Do you think I am just going to sit back and let you walk over me and be the good little boy you want me to be, or are you going to fight the fight you started, instead of running and hiding behind your mother’s skirts, and the fatherly robes of your religious leaders? I’ll tell you right now, you can only lose this fight, because you are dishonest, and you choose to obfuscate, but mostly because you do not know anything about your chosen enemy. This is the problem with the so-called war between theists and atheist, “you choose to believe what you have been told about your enemy,” while I, whom you think is your enemy, and while I may not be a friend, though I am not ruling a friendship out, I am just a living being, hoping you will give me the respect you demand I give to you, whether you deserve it or not. At this point you do not. You, as I was saying, think you know me. I do know you, to the extent that I used to be you. As a child, I believed all the things I was told, even as you still do. I believed there was a God, because I was told there was a god. I even believed that this god loved me, though he/she/it never told me that, always I was told by someone else, someone representing this god, but never by God. So, eventually, I asked, “Where is God?” I was given such answers as everywhere, in churches, in my heart even (how could anyone but me know what or who was in my heart), and the most common answer of all, in Heaven. What did someone in some heaven know, or care about little young me here on earth? He didn’t speak directly to me, he wasn’t willing to meet with me, have a conversation with me, or take a walk with me–not even through the Valley of the Shadow of Death. He never even bought me an ice-cream cone. Well, nor have you, Robert. (Is this where you got the idea, as expressed in your “next” comment, that I am “raging” against your god? Where is the rage? I find no rage here. Just reasoned discussion. If you see rage, or hear rage, or read rage, then you have a very pleasant, but wrong, image of what rage really is. Rage is never pleasant, to the ragee, or the rager. Yup, you seem to be wearing your rose-coloured glasses.)
Back to where were we, all I get from you are meddling, accusations, lies, and challenges, and I get no respect. You would rather believe the lies other people tell you, other people who do not know me either, than come to the horse to learn what is in his (my) mouth, than to listen to my truth. As I said, I’ve been you. I know how you operate.
Finally, now that I have calmed myself down from the outrage I aĺlowed you to make me feel, I will continue. But, first, tell me, please, Robert, if other people tell lies about you, or try to diminish you in front of your friends, how does that make you feel? Outraged? I don’t doubt it.
So, do you wish to continue this discussion, person to person, not theist to atheist, or even theist to atheist but still person-to-person, I am more than happy to oblige. (You agreed, so the conversation will contunue here, where other people can participate if they feel the urge.)
Robert–For someone you don’t believe in, you seem to have a lot of rage towards “god”. And for someone I thought was pacifist, to talk of a “war” between atheists and theists seems a bit strong. I would rather a conversation than a war, but I’m happy for to visit and comment on your blog, and I’m sorry if I’ve hurt your feelings. I come in peace, not war! Robert
rawgod–Please read what you write, sir. Everything you have written above is a question, or a negative statement about me. You misinterpret me, on purpose I am sure, to try to enrage me, to make me lose my cool and say something else you think you can jump on me for. I quote, “And for someone I thought was pacifist, to talk of a “war” between atheists and theists seems a bit strong.” “War” is but a synonym for conflict, it does not mean battle with weapons of destruction. How could you take my words, “so-called war between theists and atheists” and turn them into “talk of a “war” between atheists and theists.” That is an intentional misquote. You cannot even respect my intentional order of word placement. Atheists have no war with theists, but theists feel the need to war on atheists. You fear us, because we refuse to believe as you do. That creates doubt in your mind. How can anyone not believe in something so obvious as your god is to you? WHAT IF… No, don’t go there. There is no what if. Of course god exists. My mother wouldn’t lie to me. Would she? I mean, there is no Santa Claus, but, she wasn’t lieing, she was just enhancing my belief in my right to be entertained as a child. I mean, I always knew she was the Tooth Fairy. It was just another one of her many names. And she told me many stories about princes marrying princesses. She never once mentioned princes marrying princes. But I’m not a prince, I’m just her son. No, she never lied to me. Did she?
Where did you hear me “rage” against your god, Robert? Please send quotes. I raged against you, for believing lies about me, lies “other people” told you. But you’re not god, are you. At another time in my life, after I had stopped believing in religion but while I still maintained the possibility there might be a god, I would have said, yes, you are god. All of us are god. But that was another time, in another place. In my “now” world there is no place for god, or time for god. I am too busy being me.
As for thinking you can hurt my feelings, you don’t have the power, or the right to hurt my feelings, without my permission. For awhile I allowed you to make like you hurt my feelings. This was necessary, for I needed to TRY to show you how you were disrespecting me, but that was a waste of ten minutes of my life, because you will never understand how you are disrepecting me. I am an atheist, you have to disrespect me, or I might start to become human to you. Only Christians are human, everyone else is a savage beast, so to you I am a savage beast, yet one who can reason and even use the same language as you, written and spoken, but that is meaningless. I am a savage beast.
For now I will let you go on thinking you come in peace. You need to have some fantasies, after all. Take care. I will await your response in my “comment” area, and if I can figure out how to add it right into my post, I will do that.
For now, Robert, adeiu, and sweet dreams.